The company Access4you works to ensure that hotels, restaurants, offices, and office buildings not only feel that it is their duty to ensure people with disabilities can enter but to make everyone happier because of it. Triple interview.
Almost half a thousand locations can be clicked on the interactive map, on which the built environment is assessed according to special aspects – including hotels, restaurants, pubs, and tourist attractions – by the Access4you team. Currently, four auditors are traveling the country. They prepare detailed descriptions of the places according to how barrier-free they are, and what visitors using wheelchairs, the Elderly, people with limited mobility, the Blind, the Visually impaired, the Deaf, the Hard of hearing, visitors with cognitive impairment, and people with strollers need to know – these eight groups are helped by the company. They don’t just audit; they certify. Service providers receive a certification mark according to the level of accessibility: a bronze, silver, or gold plaque to motivate them through their vainness a bit to improve and compete. As the Access4you team said, they are already known enough to have prestige, so they achieved definite change with the platform. And the best is just coming.
In addition to useful information, the project also sensitizes and educates people without disabilities. It shows how many challenges a person with a disability may face in everyday life that we would not even think about. A typical situation, for example, is when hotel owners don’t understand why it’s a problem if they didn’t make the stairs barrier-free. It’s just a few degrees, just ask someone to help carry the person and their wheelchair up, they say. As a wheelchair user, Balázs Berecz was in the same situation a few years ago. Everything had been arranged before a holiday in Lisbon. However, when they arrived at the hotel in the middle of the night, there were still three stout steps waiting for them. Even then, he didn’t blame anyone, and afterwards there’s no anger at all: the idea of Access4you was born from this experience. We talked with Balázs, Ferenc Csuri, who is responsible for promoting the project, and György Bovier, motivational speaker and corporate consultant (and wheelchair tennis player), about patience, visibility, porters sitting at the top of the stairs and the air freezing in the elevator.
How typical is the Lisbon story?
Balázs: Absolutely. Before we left, we negotiated, requested photos, and asked everything. Imagine: you are in a wheelchair, your plane lands at midnight, you enter a foreign city at night – this requires courage even for a non-disabled person -, you get to the accommodation… Where you are greeted by three stairs right in front of the entrance. Moreover, not a small one, but a real, regular staircase. We called the host and told them that they didn’t mention this. They realized what was wrong, called one of their friends, saying that the two of them would pick me up. We ended up not booking the rooms, we sat down in the first pub we saw, let off steam, and started looking for accommodation. Fortunately a larger hotel chain immediately said, „we see, you’re screwed, of course, come”. It was only a bit more expensive and they were cool.
Can the host be blamed in this case? No matter how you question them, a non-wheelchair user cannot think with your head.
Balázs: I don’t hold them responsible, not even in retrospect. Certainly not the Lisbon one; if this story doesn’t exist, maybe Access4you doesn’t either. These stories come together in life. We simply don’t mean the same thing by accessibility, that’s obvious; it is still the case today. Not even us, people with special needs. It means something completely different to me, Gyuri, Feri, or a blind person. And the service provider, who is not in this life situation, has no idea what it’s like. How could they know? No one told them. There is no common language, agreement on what accessibility means and what its components are.
Gyuri: Then there are times when they not only don’t understand, but they don’t even care. „We’ll solve it somehow, make somebody pull you up, or something like that,” they say at such times. However, I travel on my own, thank you, and you can’t expect a porter to pick me up all the time. On one vacation, I didn’t even fit in the elevator, even though it was scaled beforehand. Their idea was that I would transfer to a chair, while my girlfriend would take the wheelchair to the second floor, then I would get out there and sit back down. All this for a thousand euros. Like Balázs in Lisbon, we were lucky in the end, we found a decent room in another hotel, and it ended up costing the same amount in euros. They always think this is acceptable. One host even gave me a bad rating on AirBnb in French, saying what am I complaining about, why am I not more flexible. So now I have a really bad review there. If we don’t open our mouths, nothing ever happens.
Balázs: “But there’s been someone else here in a wheelchair before and it’s been good for them.” they say. Either I believe it or not – I’m well-intentioned, I usually believe it – but if it’s true, then maybe there’s something wrong with us, people who use wheelchairs, and the community. We give in: „it’s okay; it’ll be fine this way.” It won’t be good, though. If a dialogue starts and we turn on a few lights in others’ heads, it’s worth the endeavor, even if it doesn’t turn into a business in the end. It’s just that dialogue requires openness, that the other person hears and accepts what we want to say.
Gyuri: The problem with those who say „it’s okay, we’ll take you up the stairs” is that for them it’s a solution that we have to accept. In a hotel where I couldn’t use the bathroom, they said that the wellness department would close at six in the evening anyway, and then I could go into the shared shower to take a bath, there are no stairs there. However, I would have liked to take it in my own room, which I paid for. In such cases, they usually wonder why we are not „flexible”. If you went to a hotel and there was no toilet in your room, and you were told „it’s okay, it’s in the next room, you just have to discuss with the resident when you can use it”, what would you say?
Most people don’t speak up at this point, we hate confrontation. Did you get involved in this from the start, or did you have to get to this point?
Gyuri: As far as I remember, I always spoke for everything. Also, as I get older, I get more and more impatient. In other words, I’m not impatient, rather I have an increasing need for everything to be in order. I would like to sleep in a comfortable bed, use the toilet normally, and wash my hands. Really, what if we finally got the same things in the same way as everyone else?
Balázs: I wouldn’t even call this a confrontation. These are rather awkward moments, when even people without disability realize that this is not okay. That’s when they think, „Jesus, that’s really cringe.” There’s no need to confront them, they also feel what’s wrong.
Is Hungary lagging behind in terms of accessibility? Are there typical Hungarian situations?
Balázs: We should be separating travel stories and Hungarian everyday life. If you are a tourist, you need a lot of information, you have to be prepared, and even so, completely absurd situations arise. As for Hungarian everyday life, the search for sublet is a typical story. The real estate agent recently called me to say that they had found me an apartment right next to the house where I lived at the time. The same building, built at the same time, we thought it would be suitable. I went over, the realtor and the owner came, we got into the elevator, and there was an awkward silence. It turned out the apartment was on the sixth floor, but the elevator only went to the fifth floor. I said that I think we should get out and the realtor didn’t even understand what was wrong with me. „How do you think I’ll get up?”, I asked. That’s when he got it and he apologized.
Gyuri: It’s also a typical story, that there is a sign next to the stair lifts at offices that says “the porter has the keys”, so they have to come down and help with the usage. However, the porter is sitting somewhere at the top of the stairs, so I would have to climb up there first to be able to take the lift up. Or there is no lift at all. Or there is, it just doesn’t work. Or it’s covered. You walk up the stairs in a few seconds, but it only takes us 20 minutes to find someone to take care of things. Public transport also sucks: I always say that it is improving, but it is still not where I would expect it to be in 2022. Urban transport is the same. I always remember what it was like in 2016, when we were with wheelchair tennis players at the World Cup in Tokyo. Everything, really everything is accessible. There are barrier-free toilets at every station in the city as well. Each is the size of half of this meeting room, each with a bed for those who lie down to change clothes more easily.
Compared to that, is Hungary?
Gyuri: Let’s keep in mind that I already pooped in all the five-star hotels on Deák Square at two in the morning, because they are very good people, they let me in. In a hostel on Nagymező Street, I think they already think I live there. I just walk in, wave and go to the bathroom. I know the restaurants and entertainment venues where this problem was solved. In Hungary, our brains have to be in overdrive the moment we go out into the street. „How wide is the sidewalk, how big is the bench, can we get through the traffic lights…?”. Our heads are constantly buzzing, we have to pay attention all the time. This is also how we started in Tokyo: „Damn it, let’s check on the internet how to get from A to B, so it doesn’t get messy!”. Then we set off and in twenty minutes this strange tension disappeared. We relaxed, we knew that everything would simply work out.
What does accessibility mean to a person with limb loss?
Ferenc: It has come up many times in my life that „there is nothing wrong with you, you can do anything”. I go up a flight of stairs, that’s a fact. However, standing on public transport, holding on, signaling, while carrying a briefcase, isn’t so funny anymore. Or even just the need to lift and put a box somewhere; this is no problem for Gyuri, for example.
Gyuri: High five on that!
Ferenc: It’s not like it’s easier for him than for me. I’ve traveled a lot with athletes in wheelchairs. Although I am disabled as well, I also only realized what this means in reality when we were traveling with five electric wheelchairs.
Balázs: In the previous office, it happened more than once that Feri and I went out together through the fire door. I let him go first with my usual routine, then I saw him open it with his foot. I felt some self-blame: I could have gone ahead, I can open it more simply. In other words, we notice a lot of things that we learn from, even among ourselves.
Gyuri: This is precisely why companies and service providers need to be made aware of what we need: they especially don’t know on their own. We have a corporate partner that wants to hire employees with disabilities, the HR director was completely on board with the topic. It’s true that they can relate, their grandparents were blind. This is common, it is much easier to convince someone who is even a little affected by the topic. The CEO is less so: they must now be persuaded and sensitized. Maybe we will win with economic arguments.
Hotels, restaurants and pubs also make a living from the market. Isn’t it a legitimate argument that it’s not worth making the service accessible for millions, since there aren’t that many disabled guests?
Ferenc: You can look at it that way, of course, but with this mindset might as well not get involved in a lot of things. You don’t even need a diaper changer, since hundreds of mothers with babies don’t go there every day, right? Is it worth it in Tokyo that all places are barrier-free? The goal is rather to have an attitude that „this makes us stand out”. Make the Hungarians and their catering establishments stand out for being accessible. Therefore we can plan forward, and they will also realise how good it is that we have a changing room and a toilet. Many, many situations can arise, and it is reassuring for owners to know that they are ready for anything.
Gyuri: Moreover, it is worth it economically. It is not such a big investment to design the restrooms, for example, especially if an expert is involved during the construction or conversion, who will tell you what it should look like. A little more space, a handrail: the end result is not much more expensive. It also brings its cost back very quickly. They see that there are few of us because there are few accessible places. If they were to spread, a group of people in wheelchairs would immediately sit in such pubs every Friday.
Balázs: Access4you is about providing reliable information regarding places. The number one barrier-free solution is information. Therefore the affected groups can see if they are able to access the services and decide whether or not to visit. I’m exaggerating a little, but several places would not even have to change anything to be accessible. Many of them are inherently good, we just don’t know about them. We cannot be there everywhere, not even in our own city. As for visibility: in the last four years, we have clearly seen which segments are where it’s evident for the owners whether or not to pay attention to the matter. The owners of large properties – shopping centers, office buildings, larger workplaces – understand much better what the problem is. The situation is different with restaurants, hairdressers and convenience stores. We also realized that we are not visible: they say „but no one comes here”. Now we are working to register as many disabled people as possible and present them to the owners: „here, there are fifty thousand people, hundreds of them live nearby, would you like to communicate with them, give them information?”. If we don’t break through the wall with this either, then the circle is closed. We can’t give more than that. If we break through, we can move forward with marketing, digital tools, consulting for development, and communication with future customers. We all provide help with these.
Ferenc: It’s also a problem that everyone only thinks about people in wheelchairs, even though ten percent of society lives with some kind of disability. Moreover, it is also important for the individuals who are not officially disabled: the Elderly, people who have undergone surgery, or even new mothers. I have a relative as well who, after their hip surgery, told me that they can’t come here and there with us, because they know in advance that they won’t even be able to go inside.
We have already seen restaurants or pubs that were scared by negative reviews and made changes. What helps more, education, sensitization, or downgrading on social media sites?
Balázs: We believe in the former.
Gyuri: In addition, negative comments can be deleted, and many people communicate when there is a scandal that „it wasn’t like that…”. Moreover, negative criticism breeds fear. It is already the case that many caterers feel embarrassed just because they have guests in wheelchairs. It was the same in college: I was the only one at the time. Everyone around me felt strange. Then it passed: we got to know each other. If we can’t even enter a place, we can’t even get to know each other.
Ferenc: A lot depends on us too. We have to make ourselves accepted. It is our responsibility to be open to everyone and every situation; without that, the walls will never come down.
Balázs: The attitude of „we are entitled to it” – even if it is legitimate and true – often causes resistance. When they encounter this, they usually take two steps back. If we throw in two jokes, we become silly, we are direct, it’s different.
Gyuri: Yes, but after a while it gets tiring to always joke with everyone, to be good-natured. And the thing is, we are entitled to it. I can use humour, but many people can’t because they’re in a worse situation, or they don’t even want to.
Most of them are tiptoeing around you, not knowing what actions will hurt you, while everyone is wondering what could have happened. Where’s the limit?
Gyuri: I haven’t had one for a long time. I allow everything, anything is permitted to be asked. And they ask. The good thing is that they also ask me what might be uncomfortable for others, but I answer casually. However, adults cannot be changed or shaped: if we want social change, we have to start with the children. There is a chance that the taboos will disappear from the next generation.
Balázs: The three of us – and the entire company – are very good examples of how good integrated education is. In a good sense, my education was a very rough integration. I mean I was in the same class with non-disabled children from elementary school to college. We lived together, everyday life went on, they learned everything. It is therefore important not to isolate groups. That way, by the time they grow up, there will be no question of how to treat us. Adults usually understand our problems, or at least want to understand them, but as Gyuri says, they don’t dare to ask. By the way, it’s a good thing that he is in the media so much. This way, the information that they would not otherwise receive reaches them exactly on the right channels.
Ferenc: I often come across stereotypes about us, especially that “hey, you are such a cool guy, even though you are missing one arm!”
Maybe they think you are sad, angry, traumatised people. By the way, I was also embarrassed when we met. Suddenly I didn’t know how we would shake hands, then I thought, you must see my embarrassment and it will be hurtful to you.
Ferenc: Oh, the handshake, yes, that’s typical. But you see, we solved it. Anyway, yes, they must think that we wake up every day in a murderous mood. Not at all though.
Balázs: Who doesn’t have trauma in their life? One way or another, everyone is hurt. However, this connects us rather than divides us.
Original interview: https://nlc.hu/eletmod/20221010/access4you-akadalymentesites-interju/ by Márton Neményi
Translation: Dalma Ecseri
Source of photos: nlc.hu, Márton Neményi
Access4you is a social impact startup: we survey and evaluate buildings to provide detailed, credible information about the built environment for the special needs community. Based on the results, we issue a certificate stating that the location is entitled to use the ‘Access4you’ European certification mark, and the detailed data of the site will be publicly available in the access4you.io database and mobile application.
For more information: https://access4you.io/b2b